Episode 10: Redeeming Heartache with Cathy Loerzel

11/29/21
Growing Creative Podcast
S1E10: Redeeming Heartache with Cathy Loerzel
 
Today Jane sits down for a conversation with Cathy Loerzel of the Allender Center on suffering & the healing process. 
 
Resource Links:

- Learn more about Cathy Loerzel

- Allender Center Story Workshop

- Redeeming Heartache  by Dan Allender & Cathy Loerzel: 

Jane Boutwell is an artist & creative coach based in Atlanta, Georgia. She loves to nurture and empower others to pursue their creative callings.

"I am an artist with an inquisitive mind, a heart connected to nature and a soul yearning towards God…a child of dirt and dance…a beauty bringing blessing writer… a poetic painter and potter.

Starting with mud pies as a child in the backyard, my creativity includes tactile, intuitive, and deeply-in-touch-with-nature ways of being in the world. I see myself as an apprentice in God’s art studio of the natural world that is full of metaphor, imprinted with the character of the Maker.

It is my passion to share the shimmering beauty and deep truths I find in the creative medium that seems most fitting. Those creative expressions include gardening, quilting, writing, painting, sketching, ceramics, dancing, creative coaching, podcasting, and family life with my husband and four children in Tucker/Atlanta, Georgia."

Join the email list to learn more about special offerings : https://www.janeboutwellstudio.com/contact
Free Sketchbooking resource here: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/5f7b3597322e6ae12d5c774e

Follow @janeboutwellstudio on IG for more.

Transcript

And today's episode, you're going to hear me having a total fan girl moment. As I had the privilege of having a conversation with Cathy Loerzel, I have been deeply impacted by the work that she and Dan Allander have been doing through the Islander center out of the Seattle school. She's a co-founder along with Dan and his wife, Becky of the Allander center.

She also is the executive vice-president. She spent over a decade working with Dan to develop trauma informed narrative theory, and other words, that's revisiting our past stories of harm and hurt in order to bring healing to the issues that hold us back in our day to day lives. Now, you know, that the playfulness needed for creative freedom is deeply impacted by our experiences in the past of harm and ridicule,

maybe shame, fears that hold us back. And so this conversation diving in to topics that are in Dan's most recent book that he co-authored with Kathy and it's Kathy's first book. And I look forward to more coming down the line. I hope, but this recent book is called redeeming heartache, and it talks about how our past stories of harm can bring us closer to our true calling.

And it uses the framework of the three core types of ways we experienced harm and wounding, which is the feelings of being an orphan or a stranger or widow or widower. And they've used this framework and these archetypes to explore how each of those places have woundings can be transformed through healing and to the archetypes of the prophet, the priest and the king queen role.

We really get into this and explore it through our conversation. And I hope that you find some nuggets that you can apply to your life and began a healing journey. You're listening to the grow and creative podcast, and I'm your host Jane Boutwell, I'm an artist and a creative coach. This is a space that will nurture your heart and empower you to pursue your creative calling,

whatever that may be. Well, hi, it's so nice to see you in me And almost person. I know as close as we can come these days. And I did want to tell you that I brought you flowers even cannot have them. This is like my last rose of the season and it's this dude, the obscure rose, and it's the best smelling rose you're ever was.

So as we were talking about our bodies and connecting and senses, and so I've been holding these not to just show you. Oh, I love 'em. I love it. Thank you. So you and Dan Allander have written this book and I for 1:00 AM so immensely grateful. I, when I was at the story workshop, which if anybody has listened to the first episode of the podcast,

they'll hear a bit about my experience of that and how transformative it was and the taste of what that was like for me. But one of the things that really captured my imagination was when he, you, you weren't at that one. But when Dan had talked about the archetypes of the prophet priest and king, and how as we move into healing, how we can live out those roles.

And I feel like there's times where I've gotten the message that this world is broken and the best we can do is kind of learn to just make it through till the end. You know, we might be in the depressants, it might be just getting a hug from a friend from time to time. Like life is hard and you just kind of like,

we just gotta do the best we can to survive till it's over. And, and I've, you know, through my story of family, parents getting divorced and Milton when I was in middle school and, you know, struggling with depression and stuff off and on, I've definitely faced the reality of heartache and trauma and just life is hard. And I,

I believe that part, but it was so hard to just sit with that kind of, that's all there is like, just try to make it through. And I feel like the story workshop was the first time I really had hoped that there was more, that actual real healing could happen. And this came to me at the time when I had a family member who was deeply struggling with addiction and trying to go through recovery.

And the first time it just didn't take in. And there was this really a sense that I don't even know what kind of therapy to try for. There's not anything that's really ever made a big difference. There've been kind of band-aids and just survive along, but not anything that has really brought something that makes life different, your brain transport, your thought process,

your framework, and having that picture of the prophet priest and king role that we are called into to live out as Jesus did the prophet priest and keen to bring God's kingdom come now, you know, yes, it's still going to be a broken mess, but we can partner there's things that we are to do and ways we can embody these roles. And I just feel like it was so powerful for me.

And so I was dying. I left wanting more so badly wanting to hear more, wanting to learn more. And so when I found out y'all are writing this book, I had been counting it down. So I thought that it would be really lovely just to kind of flesh out the things that you talk about in the book, especially with regard to creativity.

So I thought it might be helpful to like, make sure we, like, I don't know, name our terms or define our diviner words or whatever. So the way I think of creatives, I think, and I think you must agree that we all are creative. It's like who we are as humans, who we were like, the first thing we know about humans is that they're created in the image of this being.

And what do we first know about the being he's a creator created things. And so I just have this very strong belief in universal creativity. So I think everybody has this creativity in these creative sides, but then I think there are people that it seems more overt. Maybe their calling is to be more visible, outward, kind of what traditional ways people think of it with like book writing,

painting musicians, artists types, which I'm just using creatives as an umbrella for all of that. I just was wanting to like dive in to the wounding and how that particularly affects creatives with a mind that when we talk about creatives, everybody has that side to them. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I, I think, and, and let me,

let me just go back. Like, I, I, I love the fact that what drew you into this work was that the idea of there's hope like that change is possible that our hearts are able to experience healing and delight and joy. And that, that is part of our role of being on the earth is to join God in what is beautiful to fight what is dark and,

and to really reckon with what's true about the world, all of it, the good, the bad, the ugly, the stunning natures of it, like all of it is meant to be understood and handled, I think, and I, the, the idea that we are just supposed to kind of get through it so that we can go to heaven.

I just think it's one of the most tragic things that feels like such an abomination. If I may be so bold in terms of the hope of the gospel, the hope of God, and frankly, what's, what's possible here on earth is so much more stunning than we could ever imagine. And more heartbreaking than we will ever imagine. And some of us know,

heartbreak and woundedness and abuse more than others, but we, we cannot escape it. And so the way that, where we start with the book and, and really with our theory is that we were created for Eden. We were created for something that was perfect connection with God, self others and the earth, right. That's where we start. And,

and then we're kind of put on this earth that looks so much like, like it's so close. And yet here we are having to navigate something that, that we have like a memory of a bodily memory of, and yet it's, we're living in a shattered, broken world that still has the remanence of Eden. Like it's, there are still pieces of it that are still available to us.

And I think so much of our life is meant to navigate the difference between the world that we find ourselves in and then the disappointment of what we were meant for. But it's not to just be like to resolve into the despair of like, well, we'll just wait until heaven. I think the call is, and to create, I think the call is then to find how to heal,

how to restore, how to redeem, how to be part of the work of the gospel here on earth and how to bear the reality that it's never going to be eaten, but that's okay. And so were we, cause I think creativity and I do, I agree. All people are meant to be creative. All people are meant to bring beauty and life and goodness that can happen through an incredible spreadsheet and Excel like that can happen through,

you know, creating a beautiful living room. Like that's the, you know, it's, it's through creating a table for Thanksgiving where people can rest and enjoy and have sensuality around them and beauty and goodness, like it's, it's in the small and it's in the big, and it does not, it's not differentiated according to whether or not you're painting a painting.

Right. It's, it's all around us. And I really believe that it's, it's the call of the spirit to, to bring, to bring beauty to whatever is in front of us. Yeah. Like, you know, I don't know if you'll put this part, but you know, you, you, you brought flowers from your garden to accompany us on this journey in it's and,

and that's gospel. Like, that's what we're called to do. We're called to look to what's in front of us and, and then say, what, how can I elevate what's here and offer it to the people around me? I think that's our call. Wow. Yeah. He meant all of that. And it does it take so much courage,

I think to, I don't know, just hear you speak about the tendency of people to just kind of this willingness to just kind of sit with it, how it is. And, and it takes so much courage to look and it met and name how broken, how dark, how hurtful the reality can be. And it takes courage to extend hope and act out,

you know, goodness and creativity with the full knowledge of the risk, that it will not make it perfect and will not be unblemished. It will not always be received with kindness. One of the things that, you know, in the book, when you start going into these archetypes, you began, we mentioned the prophet priest and king, but you also are talking about the three core winds of orphan stranger and widow widower.

And the first one you go through is the orphan. And then the flip of that as that heals and to priests. And I mean, the tears just, I was just weeping my way as I listened to audio books. So I can be making it at the same time, the orphan wending, which is not well. And I guess to preface that I just deeply appreciate y'all speaking.

And to the reality that trauma is not just the big T trauma like rape and murder and these huge things, our bodies and our hearts are wounded. Whenever it strays from Eden, that's sometimes the smallest nuanced kind of subtle abuse that, you know, can be as impactful if not more. Cause it's harder to name. Yes. Yeah. The subtle abuse has a lot of impact.

And you know, the way we talk about in the book as a sense of it's a shattering, like we all experience there, moments where we realize what we're meant for is not how the world is built. And when we realize that there's something that happens to us, even at a very, very young age where you augment your need to meet what,

what the people around you are able to give. And so a child very early on will be reading the room. There'll be reading their caretakers and they'll figure out quickly, how much am I allowed to need before I realized, like there's no one coming, you know, the most horrible and most poignant evidences of that are babies who are in orphanages, who they eventually quickly,

they stopped crying. They stop because they know no one's coming and it's useless. And so they learn that their impulse to cry out for help their impulse to cry out the assumption that someone is going to be there. They learn neurologically and biologically that no one is coming and then they stop crying and they stop, they stop meeting. Right. And they,

they still need, but they're shutting it down. Right. And I think that's what we do in very subtle ways throughout our lives. Like as children, we are always looking to our parents and our caregivers and our communities to see how safe is this and how much am I able to unfurl and then have my needs be met by my caregivers. And that can be something as you know,

like drastic as extreme neglect or abuse, you know? And then, and then you recalibrate as a kid, like, okay, I now know that this world is not safe, so I'm going to become small. I'm not going to need, you know, I'm going to only give myself what I can give myself. Like, well, I'm only going to need what I can give to my own heart or body.

Right. And the hyper-vigilance That's right. And you recalibrate. Yeah. And, and so I think for an orphan, you know, it's, it's really important for us to, to open ourselves up to you don't need extreme abuse to have had an orphan wound. Yes. You don't need to be a literal orphan. Right. Dysfunctional family, you know,

like life where the marriage is a mess and there's not extra available attention to give to the children creates an orphan wind. Yes. So you have a mother and a father in your home all the time, you know? Right. Yes. Or the sense of like your parents, they have their own trauma and they don't know how to deal with your complex emotions.

Right. That creates an orphan wound. So even the sense of they're caring, they're loving, you're well, fed you're closed. They're actually loving. But when you come with like a complex feeling or a sense of fear or dread or anxiety, their solution is, ah, you know, let's just like, why don't you watch some more TV? Why don't you go to bed early?

It seems like you're just tired. Oh, let me take you to target and buy you new toy. Like, there are lots of ways that we end up learning what we need is not going to be given to us. And then we adjust our need. Now, fast forward, you know, 30 years later, that that person is now in a marriage that,

you know, and they're wondering why it's so difficult for them to be open and available to the connection of their partner while it's, because they learned early on that they have to cover up their complex need and complex emotion. And they haven't actually learned how to dig into that. And so a lot of this work that we're talking about in the book and that we do at the honor center is helping people go back to those origin stories that may feel very benign,

but taught them something. And now that's how they're relating to the world and the present. And you cannot fix the present without going back to the past. And the present actually can be healed, but not just by deciding I'm going to be a better person or I'm going to reconnect my husband, or I'm gonna, you know, whatever it is that you kind of feel like you want to change behavior.

It doesn't work that way. You have to go back. It's like the root there's it's, you know, I come from a long line of dentists that root canal, you know, like you can't just like tap something, like put a little new enamel on the top of the cavity. Like you gotta get down down to the root and find a source and,

and clean it out. And what I think is so powerful to me is how simple it is in some ways, I mean, it's, it's not easy to do, but the fact that just naming the wind goes so far to bringing healing, it's seeing it, recognizing it, admitting that this is there, this hole in my heart, you know,

is there putting a name to it, seeing it instead of ignoring it, you know, that's just such a huge first step and, and bringing healing And that amazing. Yes. Yeah. I think, I think that's so true. And, and I, you know, in the book, we, we make the connection of, you know, the,

the way that an orphan gets healed is through attunement and attunement is kind of an attachment theory that, you know, we didn't come up with. We, we just think is brilliant. And we use at the honor center, but the idea that the orphan doesn't need to be fixed, the orphan just needs to, to, for someone to be able to say,

yeah, what you experienced was really difficult and heartbreaking. And I see the impact that it's had on you. And I'm so sorry, like just seeing the face and knowing like this, this is something that really impacted you. And it doesn't take much for our hearts to feel comforted through attunement once they are built for it. I like hear that word.

And I think of, you know, like a tuning fork, you know, and how it's like when you've had these winds, especially this orphan wind, we're really, all of them are winds of loneliness where they're all isolating you, but that orphan wind, you know, you have this and you feel like you're alone, you're so alone. You can't even admit that you have need,

cause you've gotta be hypervigilant to survive the day to day and make sure you have an eye on everything, because you can only count on yourself. And for once to have somebody look at you and tell you that deep sense you have, that something's not right. Is true. Yeah. I'm not alone in sensing that that's the case. Yeah. I am like a tuning fork resonating at the same place with you saying there's something not.

Right. Yeah. And I think, you know, as Christians, I think there's this fear of like admitting to trauma or admitting, like going down this kind of path on these journeys. I think some people feel like it's Naval gazing. It's getting stuck in the past being a victim, looking for people to blame for your problems. And yet it makes me think of that cry of the soul book that Dan Allander and Tremper Longman wrote with the songs and going through the emotions.

And like, you've got these emotions that we think of as bad, but the reality is God has those, like God has anger that has jealousy, you know, but in a right way. And, and I love that chapter in anger where it's like, if you are seeing the wrong in this world and you're not angry about it, not okay,

that is bad to not feel the wrongness of this world. And so I just think to me, it's like, there's a real holiness and a real honoring of the deep, rich goodness and beauty of God when we will at met and name where that's not happening. That's right. Well, and it's, it's that part of scripture that says, you know,

the truth will set you free. And I think that's one of the most radical hopeful passages in scripture. And it's not just truth of like, well, I'm just going to tell you the truth and you know, it's going to be like, mean and nasty, you know? But it's like that sense that when, when you land into what's actually true,

it brings honor. It brings honor and integrity, and we don't have to be afraid of it because there's no condemnation in Christ. Right. So you have these, the sense of, of, if you start to tell the truth about your family, you're going to start to tap into fear of like, oh, am I being disloyal? Is this not loving?

Is this not honoring of my family? But if you do it with kindness and integrity and you know, a sense of bringing the wholeness of your story back into tack then, And I hope that nothing's too messy. Yes. Forgot to create something beautiful. Right. Don already knows the story that already knows the truth. So what, what are you protecting by not telling the truth of the impact of sin and harm in your life?

No one is surprised by this. And, and in fact, it actually allows there to be more hope in your relationship with your family. If you're actually willing to tell the truth, get the healing that you need, that maybe you can be in a different relationship with them. But I think, you know, in the same way that we're terrified of,

what's really true about ourselves. We're also terrified about what's actually true about our pasts and those are, those are linked. You know, so often when I do story work with people, they don't want to admit things about what happened with their family, because then immediately they go to, but I did the same thing to my kids. So if I admit that this was harmful,

what do I do with what I've done with my children? What do I do with the fact that this has continued to be legacy? And it's like, look, you know, this is your chance to break generational harm and you're going to have to be courageous about it. And you're going to have to be willing to own the own plank in your own eye,

but you can't do that if you're not also willing to, to understand how that came to be. And when you're committed to actually breaking generational harm and trauma, you know, you can change whole family lineages by being courageous and being willing to tell the truth about what happened. That kind of brings a little color to this other aspect of this situation, where I feel like we feel selfish to invest in this because the reality is it does require a lot to set aside space for yourself to do the grieving,

to take the time, to look back, whether it's through journaling, whether it's in a story workshop, setting with a group, whether it's one-on-one with a counselor through therapy, you know, which requires money, time, emotional energy. And if you're a mother, you know, that takes time away from your family to do this work. And it feels like there's never a good time to do it.

And it feels selfish because it's doing the same for yourself, you know, and to do it well, you have to do it for yourself. It can't just be family counseling to patch up whatever issue you're having with your child. You know, it's like to really effectively deal with that issue you're having right now with your child, got to get to the root all the way back,

which is your own personal work. No, I think, I think doing this work again, I think it's so counterintuitive to kind of the, the evangelical Christianity that, that at least I grew up with that sense of like that selfish navel gazing, you know, like don't, it just don't look back. And the message I always got was if you're looking back,

you're not, you haven't actually received the fullness of God because God heals you. The moment you're saved and then it's just looking forward. And so if you're still bound to the past, it actually has some sort of implication of your spirituality or how much you're following God. Or you just need to read more scripture, pray more, do your devotions, like all the things that are kind of band-aids I actually think to do this work is,

is some of the holiest work you will ever do on behalf of God and the kingdom, because God needs us to be healed so that we can participate in the kingdom come so we can participate in bringing more of God, more of goodness, more of healing to this earth. That is our job as Christians. If we are not healed, we are going to do a lot of damage trying to get in there and trying to kind of help heal others.

I mean, how many people have we seen who are not dealing with their own brokenness and ha, and have gone on to like start megachurches are huge programs. And then their own sin catches up with them, their own heartache, their own heartbreak. Yeah. They're repeating the trauma enacted in their house and their past that they're playing out. Right? So I think this is,

I think that this is the call of the spirits to slow down, be willing to take the time and actually go into deep dives. And, and, and again, it's not like it has to be your whole life. There can be seasons where you say, you know what, I'm ready, I'm ready to tackle this part. Or I feel called into this particular part of my story,

and God will open doors and, and then you can take a break. You know, you don't have to kind of keep going. It doesn't have to be this, you know, it, it, there's so much generosity in the spirit of God as we do this work. And, and I think the change, I mean, this goes back to what you were saying in the beginning of our conversation is that there's actually hope like we can become more redeemed,

but we can't skip over the process of going into the depths of the shadow. Part of our stories that we want to ignore. You cannot ignore the heartache, the heartbreak, the abuse, the trauma, and expect to all of a sudden be able to jump over to the other side that, you know, and then be redeemed. And that's why we start with orphan widow and stranger.

We don't start with prophet priest and queen. You can't do this. I mean, that's, that's what brought me to the story workshop was I had come back to my studio artwork and started painting again, after doing other types of creativity, like quilting and gardening and different things. As my children were young. And every time I go down to the studio,

it would be like, like a, just a battlefield. I would come back up feeling like I'd been in a fight. And I think I'm doing this as a break for myself. And to kind of like, do, you know, bring my creativity alive, to give myself the freedom to play and paint as a, you know, so that I am more refresh when I come back to mothering and here I am,

I feel like I've been in a fight because this inner critic voice in my head is so me and telling me how terrible of a job I'm doing, how it sucks, why bother, you know, everybody else is better. Like all of these terrible things, you know, and it's like, what is going on here? And I knew, I knew deeply that I had this whimsical playful scree artwork in me that needed to come out.

And I'd seen this work of these, this other artists. And she wouldn't let herself paint really big until after she'd had this cancer journey and lost her tongue and had like a 50% chance of survival, dramatic hard thing that finally made her say, like, that's it, I survived this and I'm not listening to the inner critic anymore. I'm boldly going forth.

And I thought, well, I don't want to wait for that. I don't want to wait for that. And I'm just had this deep sense. There's something in my past, there are this inner critic, voice is coming. It's echoes of voices from teachers, parents, situations that I have absorbed that I am. That's like still reverberating and in my mind,

and I am not going to be able to be free from this until I get to the bottom of it until I start to dig in and find, find where that is and bring healing to that. And I, I, I simply can't do it. So that's why I came to this workshop, you know, and it, and it, boy,

was it the exact right thing I needed to do? Well, I think what I love about what you're saying is, is the idea that, you know, you have to be able to confront the sh the shadows, like the parts that we, we spend so much time and energy containing them, or running away from them or turning from them. And really they're the broken little parts of us that are so wounded that,

that need attention that needed a tune mint that needs someone coming alongside and listening and, and bearing witness to what was true. And those parts of us long for freedom, they long for healing. And, and we're actually in our brains are incredibly capable of healing. Yeah. Once you give them the like, okay, let's do this now. Yep.

And it's not to say it's like a quick, you know, it, but in some ways it can be like, I've, I've worked with people in their stories where, when, when they actually see their story aid, a lot of times with the stray workshop and other programs we do at the honor center, we have people write out a narrative,

you know, because there's something about the, when you write something, all of a sudden it becomes outside of you. And in some ways it tells the truth more than what you're willing to really admit. If you're telling a story live, right. You self edit when you write it, it's fascinating to see, you know, the, the language you use,

the, the, all of a sudden you can tell where you regress into a younger state, because the syntax changes. I mean, it is fascinating. Oh, the science and art behind story and narrative is amazing. But, but what, what ends up happening is that you start to understand what really happened. And what we know from neuroscience is that we actually,

when we experienced trauma are our brain fragments, but the trauma, because we can't handle the full story in the moment, it's too disruptive it's. And so we do what we need to, to survive. But then when you end up doing is then rewriting it in some ways to be a less disruptive version of it. Right. But when you start to write it,

a person can read that story and see the parts you're leaving out. Yeah. See the parts that, that you actually need to lean further into. And when you start to integrate all of that back in there, you're all of a sudden, like really taken by your own story. And it allows it to become like, your body already knows that that's the story.

Right. But now your mind, like it's your left and your right brain, right? So your right brain takes care of like your, your bodily sensations. The body keeps the score, like all that stuff. Your body knows what happened to you. And it, and it's going to tell you the story over and over and over again until your left brain catches up and is able to actually understand cognitively what happened to you.

And it's the integration of both of those things that our body then can rest. It's not having to like, hold that freeze frame in kind of like a, like a gift, like constantly replaying that low freeze frame clip until you get a chance to look around, like, pause it, look around the room. What other details are there? What's the fuller story?

And it's bringing light in, it's telling the truth. Yes, it is telling the truth because when we have to freeze it for later, basically is what our brain is doing. Right. It's, you know, you don't get the full truth there. And so taking the time to go back is such an honoring thing to do to yourself. And that's one thing I really took away from the story workshop experience was having gaining a self-compassion learning to kind of see myself as a person that deserves the kind of compassion that I would give to somebody else.

And you would want somebody else to see the full truth instead of just remembering this one moment to step back and see the fuller story. It's so powerful. It is. And I, and I think, you know, so much our instinct is, is to not go back because we're afraid it's going to overwhelm us. Like, that's the number one question I get,

you know, teaching. This is like, well, if I actually let myself really see the truth, I'm afraid that I'm going to get swallowed up in grief and sorrow in despair. And I'm never going to be able to come out of it again. Well, how much do you think Cathy is that related to the fact that our culture has lost a grieving culture?

I mean, I started writing a book about artwork that I've made relating to grieving, because I think that's a way that we can have a ritual and an embodied way to process grief, but like, yes, my grandmother passed away in March and, and I was stuck in this, sorry that I didn't know what to do with until all of a sudden I remembered flowers on the casket.

That's something that's going to be needed. And I speak that language and it is so powerful to me to touch plants and pick, choose them with a particular theme or, you know, story in mind. And as soon as I realized that I could make the flowers for her casket as an expression of who she was to honor all the things that she loved,

the Navy velvet ribbon, the blue hydrangeas from her back garden, the different aspects of her life, knowing that it would minister to my family that deeply sensitive creatives and knew this, we knew our Nana well, and to see flowers that didn't represent would be in Congress, you know, but, but really it was, it was, as soon as I realized that I could do that,

it shifted me into this way of the grief coming through me, instead of being this stagnant, stuck, I don't know what to do with it. Think about how that tradition developed it developed because people would go outside and gather and they'd have a walk in nature and they would touch plant. There would be grounded. They would smell the leaves, breaking.

They would feel pedals against their cheek. They would be ministered to, by the action of gathering up these flowers and laying them and feeling like they had done a physical act to honor. And now we have separated that to another thing on the to-do list. And it was added to the budget to go for us and worry about what people will think. It looks nice enough or not.

You know, I, I don't know if, if you brought that story because of the priests chapter, but you're describing the priest, the role of the priest to a T Oh boy, did I recognize it? When I read it? I was like, that is what I'm doing. It's what I'm doing. And it's, you know, one of the first wins that I recognized is I gone through my story.

Is it a deep orphan wounding projection? And, and I had spent some time in Alanon as my family member dealing with this history of addiction and learning an Alanon that's the first of the 12 steps you have to embrace is I am powerless, which is so hard when you have this hypervigilance with people that have grown up in an addictive family, which I think everything with addiction is the same as abuse.

And I think that the healing of it, the reality of living in it, you know, and the 12 steps are like the gospel, like powerless, but there's somebody else who's not. And it's, and it's that. But it was that hypervigilance that you have feeling like you have to keep everything for yourself and you have to protect everybody you love.

Right? And once you realize that I can't do that. And I, I had a section in here that you wrote about the priest and it said the priest needs to cultivate practices of her own that allow for reorientation restoration and play Jesus. The ultimate body, men of the priest created boundaries and took time and space he needed so that he could continue his calling to serve the people,

a priest who has embraced her inner orphan will find a balance that allows her to detach from those whose stories she holds in order to retreat, to the other side of the lake. If a priest can make room for her own story and rest from the work of tending to other people, she can bring reorientation and delight the kingdom. And it was, you know,

through my own realizing that I couldn't fix anybody else. Right. And fixing wasn't required. Right. You know, and experiencing how I found healing. It is that attunement. And so it's realizing that seeing somebody who's hurting and giving them something like flowers or a work of art that echoes their pain and just, isn't, it's just a tangible way to say hi,

see it. Yeah. It's true. Well, and that's what the orphan needs, right. Is the sense of the role of the priest is to give people a way through the grief. Like I said, not around it, not above it, The going on a bear hunt, we listen to that over and over. When we went out west,

which everything is two hours away. And it was happened to be the moment when our fourth child was 18 months and decided that the car seat was a torture device. And we were actually trying to kill her. It buckled up. So the only way we made it through that trip was going on a bear hunt cartoon. There's no way around it. And it can't go over.

It can't go under it. You got to go through it, squish, squish, squish, squash, it's a mantra. And this, you know, and this truth, that something, and you can't Well, and, and the priests then Ben helps the community put on the boots, have enough courage. They narrate what's true. And, and be able to remind people like this is your story,

the good, the bad, the ugly, like they're, you know, the, the role of the priest in the old Testament was to, to create rituals for the community to cling to and move through so that they didn't have to create it themselves. Like when you're grieving, when you are in shock, when you're in trauma, you can't do it yourself.

You can't pull yourself together and then create a ritual Even. Right. Totally. And, and, but, but to have the role of the priest, both your internal priest and other people who are, who are activating in your life to say, you know, like what you did for your family, like you, you moved your body through a ritual that would bring honor and intentionality and remembering her,

you remembered your grandmother. And, and that act of remembering. We're so terrified of, because we don't have the right vehicles, the right rituals embedded in our culture, embedded in our hearts and our bodies that we can use in the moments where we are lost when we are lost, for words, when we are lost for presence, like it's why communion is so powerful because it's,

it's a way we can anchor into a bigger story than ourselves. And we don't have to think about the language or the words or the act. We can just submit ourselves into it. And it moves into a thinner veil where we're able to connect to God. And in a way where there is no language there, you know, there isn't, but there's something that needs to move.

And, and we talk about that a lot in terms of our, our bodies can handle trauma. We actually have capacity to, but, but so often when our, when our trauma gets stuck, because we don't actually have a way to move it through our bodies and go through the bear hunt, like you have to go through it, we stop it prematurely because we don't have a way we don't know.

It's not a practice that we're used to, especially in kind of Western white evangelical culture. Other cultures have lots of ways to grieve. It's embodied. They scream at altars, they dance, they have ritual, they have movement. Like there are ways we can do it. We just have been so devoid of that. And I think it, it makes a difference in terms of our capacity then to live full and embodied lives because we have all this embedded,

stuck trauma. That's, that's like, you know, blocked artery. Yeah. And you can't, you can't go forward with that. That brings the next step of the like addictions that we use to just keep it at, keep it down definite stuff at, hold it down and distract yourself long enough. I think the capacity to grieve is directly related to how well we are able to actually live in this world with flourishing.

I'm reading this book by Francis Weller, that's called the wild edges of sorrow. And, and in it, he has, he is basically teaching you how to grieve, like giving you ways to move into grief and to kind of like show you that this is what you have to do. This is just part of life. And his three premises that I think are connected to orphan widow and stranger is,

is one. Everything that you create and love will die In one form or another. It's True. And you have to face that reality. I mean, everything, You know, otherwise you're going to be surprised by it because it will happen. Yeah, Yes. Or you're going to grip it so tightly that you don't learn how to like bring yourself to,

to connect to people and to situations and goodness, because in the back of your mind, you know, it's going to be gone, but you haven't, you're not, you don't have an afforded to, to really sink into that reality and know that you're going to be okay, it's going to hurt like, hell, it's going to be awful, but you have.

But when you're used to grief and the rhythm and seasons of grief in your life, you learn how to really sink into moments. Like right now I have a five and a seven year old two boys, and they're precious. And my five-year-old is still in that, like, he's small enough where he kind of gets in the nook. Yeah. You know where it's like,

He's got a squinch, a little to get her tucked under my chin. And I was like, you're growing out of the nuts, But he's gray on the nook. And I know that the growing of the nook is coming. And there's part of me when my orphan part isn't tended to, I'm like, ignore the pain, ignore it, ignore it,

ignore it. Like, you know, don't think about, and then, but when I'm able to actually tap into that priest part of remembering and giving my heart over to something of like, oh my gosh, yes, this is going to be gone, but I am going to cherish this right now, but I'm also not going to pan it. Like,

I know that the seasons will change and it's okay. And there will be grief there, but man, am I going to like, you know, this morning I woke up and he had crawled into bed with us and he's in the little nook curled up and I hadn't slept as well because he's in there with me. And I'm like, part of me is like,

I'm so tired. Like please. And then there's other part that I'm like, w we've got maybe one more year of this next situation and I am gonna like take every moment of it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's so true when you're in that white knuckle gripping to protect everybody from any harm, you cannot be present in the moment.

You just simply can't know. And then what are you protecting? That's right. That's right. Yeah. And, and the more you're anxious about it, the, like you said, the last year present and the more demand you have for things to stay the same. So when one thing I've been thinking about in the context of creativity with this aspect of like the hyper-vigilance,

when I was reading about the brain science of creativity, like the only way you can have this kind of like, aha brilliant creative, like whoa that came out of nowhere is when your executive functioning comms and you are able to get into this kind of playful, free set state, which if you are not tending to those orphaned wounds in your heart, if you are not turning with curiosity and looking to see,

like, what's, what's behind this inner critic voice, what's behind this, what's the deeper where city replaces that have been hurt so that I can see them and my body can let them move through. Like, it's going to take grief. Like I know you've said something like it's watered with tears. And I was writing those same words. I made a whole collection of art after the story workshop that was signs of life.

And it's like little fiddlehead ferns coming up in the spring. And just the earliest beginnings after winter. But a lot of the page, their little paper pieces is the dirt. And I have like little gold flecks of gold leaf and the dirt, because that's where you have to go. You have to get into the dirt. You have to like, like,

they used to like put ashes on their head and like lay in the dirt and get messy, likes the bear hunt, you know, and, and this, the tiers of our grief that let it come through and bring that healing and bring those little signs of earliest life after that winter of kind of feeling the barrenness, feeling the loss, looking at dead on in the face.

Absolutely. And I also had mushrooms, little mushrooms and some of those paintings because the mushrooms are the decomposers that are like processing and metabolizing the toxins in soil and bringing soil that has like richness and life in it. You know? And so when we can, when we can see the truth, that her grief is not there to kill us, it is not going to steal our joy.

It is not bringing us to our knees forever and depressed. It's this, the opposite of depression Is the opposite. Yes. Depressions, When you try to switch off because you can't, and you don't feel good or bad because you can't handle it. Right. The saying, I trust that God has given me community. My own body is programmed for this,

that earth can sit with me and my tears and I can let this come and roll through and I'll survive it. And I will have the rich soil afterwards for new things to grow. That's right. That's right. But do you, I mean, even that that's such an act of hope and faith. Yes. What you just described, it's it.

And it's trusting something of the natural system of God's economy to believe that God has given us a way to not just survive the earth, but bring flourishing. Yes. God has given us away through the pain, through the heartache, not around it. And, but the way through is, I mean, you go back to the songs that you were talking about earlier,

you know, when, when David is like, you know, angry and raging and like all is lost and lament being so honest, I mean, Got enough to handle his guns. Guess what? This sucks. Yes. Like take care of my enemies. Everyone is against me. I mean, it's, it's like pretty dramatic, you know? I mean,

there are times where I read it. I'm like, all right, David, like, that's, you know, it's bold, you know? And, and then his heart turns and, and God, isn't afraid of the whole movement of the seasons, but I think we are. Yeah, I think we are. And I think we, I think,

and I think this is where evil comes to play is that we actually have a way through, but if evil is, is going to be present in the world, isn't that where it's going to, to, to drive a stint, like, you know, Hey, this is going to be too much for you. This is navel gazing. This is indulgent.

This is, you know, and, and I think those voices are so prevalent. And I think we've in culturized those into evangelical Christianity where we actually think it's biblical, right? Oh, oh, this settled, settled twists that are so close to truth. And then they are a little bit different. Yeah. I think that was another thing that I really gained was that reality that there is good and evil in the world.

And guess what? Evil, strategic, I mean, that concept changed everything for me. I don't know why or how I missed that. But realizing that when I feel resistance to something, I better take a look at it because likelihood is, there's something really good on the other side that evil doesn't want me to figure out, right. Doesn't want me to do,

I mean, we had this interview today and I can't tell you how disastrous my morning was. Nobody died. But the eighth grade book project is lost within my home somehow, entirely. And I was late to all three of my teacher conferences and lots of deer. My daughter didn't get to her leader day at preschool. I mean, it sounds small,

but you know, in the world of family life, like this was a really disastrous day. Yes, of course it was, You know, like this is an important conversation and therefore there's going to be everything in my day to try to like derail me and I just call it off. And why do I even try to do anything like this any way?

It doesn't even matter, you know, all of it. So I'd have this little membership group with the growing creative fellowship where I'm like, kind of guiding people back to their creativity or deeper into their creativity. And one of the biggest things is that like there's resistance. And when you need it be curious because you know that you don't meet resistance when you think let's watch Netflix for five hours,

let's eat a brownie. There's no resistance when you're doing things that aren't that great for you. And so coming with curiosity to the areas where you've, if you, you're going to feel intense resistance to actually showing up and making something creative that could speak to someone in a wordless powerful way and change their view of the world, bring beauty and healing into their heart.

Yeah. I think, I think that if, if we really do believe the premise that we are meant to bring flourishing and goodness to the world, and that is the way that God is most known and that human beings actually can experience, We went for us to do something like he created us in his image to like, actually be a part of this with him.

Yes. An active part, you know, again, not just skating through waiting for heaven, you know, we're, we're meant to do something together. And, and so I think when evil realizes that it's losing ground, I think it activates, I mean, th the stories that go in, like when someone's prepping to go to the story workshop or go to one of our certificate programs or come to a conference,

their lives fall apart beforehand. And I don't, I hate saying that, you know, in a podcast, because if you're thinking about it, you know, but, but at the same time, it's totally worth it. It's totally worth it. And I think it's because evil activates to keep us bound. And, and what binds us right now is,

is the sense of, of our it's indulgent, or it's not worth it, or it's too much, you know, like, like evil has one. If we are living depleted, depressed, awful lives, you know what, God isn't known Anything to not face and names, truly the harm and grieve it and began the process of forgiveness tenants of the way we are reacting,

like reenacting the trauma. We were dealt. Like all of those things are so powerful. Yes. Change. I mean, change the world, you know? And I think even like, it was such a block for me to see that what I do, like the making flowers, you know, to get somebody to see that that has power. I mean,

I couldn't see that I had no concept that, that mattered. I just felt like it made me a little bit weird. Sometimes people felt like, oh, I'm not as good because I didn't bring flowers. So now I'm going to like deflect my discomfort by, you know, by making me feel rejected and like the stranger, you know, and,

and it, and it is, it's been such a warrior act like it's taken a warrior kind of courage and vision to see that, like, this seems so insignificant. And yet I know now that bringing beauty, whether it's a flower arrangement, an art piece, a moment of looking into a friend's eyes and that's all I have to offer them. I don't have one word that's going to fix it.

I'm just going to like hug them and cry with them. I now know that that's some of them as powerful things that can change hearts and heal and bring, bring God's kingdom, come bring region this world. Yes. It's not often in the big things that the fullness of God is revealed. It's being faithful in small moments of what's in front of you and,

and really stewarding the, the world that the little piece of the world that is yours to bring goodness to like we that's, that is our job and, and bigger things can come from that for sure. But my gosh, like in the winter, I go through a ritual with my, my boys where, you know, I love cooking and I love hosting and I love a beautiful table.

And I have all of these candles that I have, like on this, you know, kind of buffet next to our dining room table. And in the winter, it gets real dark in Seattle. And I used to fight it. You know, I hear ya. Yeah. I used to, I used to hate it and dread, you know,

the fall. Cause I knew that winter was coming, it was gonna get rainy and dark. And, and then I started this ritual where every night we would, we do the candle lighting and we light all the candles on the table, on the buffet and they love it. And so we, they know, like we had like an official start to candle lighting season.

Wow. When does it Start? Well, for, For us, it started on the first gloomy day, rainy gloomy day in September. And I was like, okay guys, like, this is it. This, I declare it the first day. I love that. It's not set by the calendar, but you feel it, you feel, Oh yeah,

because the seasons change here real intensely, all of a sudden it's like beautiful and 75. And then it's like rainy and 40 and you don't know what happened, but it happens overnight. But it was like that ushering in where I was like, okay, it's it's candle season, you know, let's, let's, let's light. And I think those are the sorts of things where it's like,

you know, and for me, that's my, my, a big part of my journey has been giving myself over to the priest because I'm a natural queen. We didn't really talk about queen or prophet, but I'm a natural queen. You know, where I can do big things. I can start big organizations, but where God has been working in my life is,

is the small is being faithful and, and creating rituals and leaning into soup making and, you know, canning with my husband and like, And for the first time, the other night, and I mean, after nine hours of stirring, pear being paramount, pear butter, I like got up to bed. I was like, I feel like I need to still attend these pots and dip the cans.

But this sense of like, knowing that I've stored up this goodness out as a gift for later, that we'll go back to those hot summer days, picking this hair trees that we planted when our son was born, you know, and that we get taken care of those, that sense of like offering that. Yeah. It's just become such a well,

and that reminds me of a conversation at her with a friend about feminism you know, and I feel like part of the fallout, part of the, the, you know, every coin has a good side and a bad side. And part of the bad side was that was this sense that if we should be able to do what men do and go out and do the run corporations,

which we certainly can do well, it, it means that, well, why would you just stay home and make care about how you decorate your house and camping? Why would you just like, it becomes a, just do fun. And the reality is that that's where life happens. That's where parts change. That's where ideas began over a conversation with friends and that become these corporations.

They start in those simple mundane spaces. We've created priestly, small rituals, like lighting a candle. You cannot tell me that y'all tarts are not shaped about that moment, physically bringing light into the darkness. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and for, for even little boys to experience sensuality and ritual and, and, you know, a mother that both can start a big corporation and also really care about lighting candles.

That matters too. Yeah. And, and I think that's the balance and I think, you know, feminism should be the choice. You know, we, we get to decide what brings us the most life and, and, and then, and then be free to, to, to go after that on both sides, you know, I mean,

freedom for both ways. That's right. You know, and, and, and freedom for, for men too. Like my husband stays home with our kids, you know, and then is the gardener and, you know, and it does the canning, like I'm his assistant. Oh yeah. I heard you had chickens. We have chickens. We yep.

We have eight chickens and he takes care of all that. And he brings life and sustenance and goodness into our home. And then I'm in the public and doing big conferences and writing books and, you know, but there's something so sweet about the invitation to wholeness. And I think that's part of what the book is about is, is like, you know,

look, we are all meant to lean into all three aspects of, of our personhood. And, you know, we are meant to be prophetic when there are things that are unjust in the world. We are meant to use our voices for flourishing. We are meant to be Kings and Queens bringing order and structure to places that are void. And we're meant to be priests that are meant to bring,

you know, story and ritual and a way back through grief, back to God and back to self where we're meant to be all three. And we'll certainly have natural elements that we're more drawn to that are more natural to us. And that is good. But as we grow and mature, I think there's a call to tend to all aspects of who we are so that we may bring more flourishing and more fullness to the world as we become more whole.

And that's why I love what you're doing around creativity and ushering people into what they're meant to bring. And I think it allows us to transcend something of, of the darkness of the world when we bring beauty. And all of us are meant to do that in whatever way is in front of us. And can you imagine if all of us did that?

Yes. What a world we would live in. Yeah. I know we've talked so much and we've run running out of time, but of course with the, you know, the profit is that truth teller, but there was a line in there that was like a prophet who is merely a doomsday nitwit is unless he offers a vision of goodness. And then also,

I know there's a point where Dan talked about, and it was probably in the book too, but good prophecy is when it's told on a slant, it's part of a story and there's a creativity to it. It's not just like hitting somebody on the head with this truth hammer. Right. And so I just, I think of certain people with their creative gifting who like Scott Erickson has a painter,

you know, his work so deeply prophetic and speaking truth. And, and if you, if you don't have that aspect, you know, like where you're, if you're just have the priests, you know, and you're missing that this might be hard to hear, but it's true. Then you can wrap it. And you know what, creatively with context in a story,

and it's personally connected and trust the story can speak the truth for you. Creative means whether it's poetry or painting or whatever your creative processes, and then the widow, like we were just talking. I think part of what you were saying was a lot of those kind of hosting things, which I loved that vision y'all gave of the queen king role, instead of it being this,

like I'm going to control everything around so that I can make sure I keep safe from this betrayal and heartache I've experienced as a widow. When you become into your healed queen king role, you are setting a table like, isn't that what you, how you, the picture that you gave. Yeah, the, the job of the king and queen is,

is to host the table where the priest and the prophet can, can speak to the people and heal the land. And it's not, it's not ruling over it's, it's, it's hosting and, and, and allowing there to be balance and all voices be welcome. And that's, I have a couple of friends who have this, I've been realizing, this is an intensely creative gift,

as creative as anything other, like as a painting, where they are in social settings and they can read the group, they can read who's feeling left out, who has this? They're going to want to say how these people might have some conflict that will navigate, like where to sit seat people, how to navigate, Who needs conductor of the orchestra?

I don't know if you've read the gentleman in Moscow, have you read that? Oh, I haven't. I really I'm so thankful to know that the man, I mean, it's fiction, so he's not real, but anyway, he, he orchestrates, you know, and there's even this artist that comes to visit the hotel. And later on, he sees in his sketchbook on the,

he had done this drawing of this man with this whole machine of, you know, moving people around and just orchestrating in a way that's so gracious. And people don't feel like they're being manipulated or mastered, but they just create a space. Like you said, where people can do it. They're best at doing and everybody's incorporated. And there's the freedom for all the giftings to flourish.

Absolutely. I mean, obviously there's, there's so much more that we, that we can talk about, and I know that we're needing to kind of wrap up, but, you know, again, I think, I think it's about being able to be released to, to your calling and, and ultimately our calling is to bring goodness and flourishing in whatever way we can do it.

And it, and it can be really naturally, like we don't have to, I don't have to become I'm I'm not a good artist, like traditional artist, right. You know, terrible at, at all of that. But I, but again, I can create an amazing table. I can create an incredible business plan, you know, I can,

I can be a visionary and get people excited and inspired about doing something important and good and risky in the world. That is art. That is creativity that is birthing something. And I think so much of us, we need to be free from our trauma so we can figure out what we're meant to birth. Yeah. So we're not so busy, white knuckling,

this grip of control and holding down the things that need to be grieved through. Yes. Once we get through that grieving process and we can even bring our creativity into that grieving processes vehicle for it, and then you get to bring more goodness. More beauty. Absolutely. Well, this has been such a treat for me to get to speak to you after just diving through this book and finally,

really get to hear so much more about what I got that little taste of at the story workshop. So Well, it was a gift. Thank you so much for hosting and best of luck in all your endeavors, Not on YouTube. And I just, you know, have already always been kind of recommending the experience of the story workshop. And I just want to,

once again say that that that is such an unmatched gift of a time. I mean, you could, you would think that two days or three days would not really make a difference, but somehow you enter a timeless place where so much more can happen in three days than you could imagine in your heart, unlocking things in a setting, in a community with other people going through story work.

It's an incredibly powerful thing. And a lot of just thank you for all that you've done to help bring that out. As a thing that more people can have access to and hope that any listeners will be encouraged to stop, then you will not get carried away. You will not die of grief. You were made to process three bests, and it will bring you into greater healing and greater ability to live out your calling.

Thank you for spending your time with me today, listening to the podcast. If you heard something that touched your heart, I hope that you'll share it with a friend the best way to stay in touch and find out about what's happening with the podcast or with my studio and the art that I make. You can subscribe to my email newsletter through Jane Boutwell studio.com.

I also offer a free sketchbook resource that I love to share with people when they sign up for that, which is also on my website. I would love to hear from you and hear what you are learning from a podcast. What's peaked your curiosity. What you'd like to hear more of reach out to me on Instagram and my DMS or through the email or through review.

But I would love to hear back from you and make it more like a conversation. The show notes are available to help you find a transcript or a link to anything that was mentioned in the podcast today. I always love to help you find ways to dive deeper and learn more. I'd like to thank shepherd Martin for sound editing and the music in the podcast is provided by sad Moses,

once again, thanks for joining me. I look forward to next time and keep growing creative.